Piloting Rules

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Cosmo
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Piloting Rules

Post by Cosmo » Wed Jun 03, 2015 8:07 am

Are the piloting rules trialled last event being adopted? If so, will the ruled be added to the main rule book or available to download separately?

Is the PDF for the cards available so we can print sets off?

Thanks, Debs
"Do I have the right? Simply touch one wire against the other and that's it... But if I kill, wipe out a whole intelligent lifeform, then I become like them. I'd be no better than the Daleks."..4th Doctor - Genesis of the Daleks.

Munroe
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Re: Piloting Rules

Post by Munroe » Wed Jun 03, 2015 8:37 am

They aren't, no.

We looked at it, and took the decision that the game didn't need another card skill for event refs to cater to.

Piloting will be remaining a color skill, which will only rarely turn up on events.
Lt. Alexander Munroe
OOC: Sparks.

One last hope,To rise and break away
Above the faded line, Way beyond the ties that bind

This I know, The risk is worth the gain
It's worth the sacrifice, Way beyond the ties that bind

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BenM
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Re: Piloting Rules

Post by BenM » Wed Jun 03, 2015 9:27 am

-cross posted from Facebook-

I can't say I'm not disappointed by that given that the people with the skill actually really appreciated it, and there's never been a requirement for people to 'cater' for any skills in an event so that reasoning seems flawed.

Would it be possible for you to make the optional rules available as a download for those of us who might wish to use them at future events as OPTIONAL ways of simulating piloting (they were vastly better than pure table-topping).
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Cosmo
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Re: Piloting Rules

Post by Cosmo » Wed Jun 03, 2015 11:33 am

I loved it when it was done and would be sad to see them go. It really helped when playing a pilot and added to the atmosphere a great deal.

Although I realise that another set of cards can be a pain in the arse it has been the best way of doing it so far.

What I am particularly disappointed about is piloting skill being described as 'flavour' skills. I appreciate that you can't cater for all skill types at every event, I know that from experience. However I would love for the rules to be available for 'those times when'. Also, if a player is going to spend downtimes slots on a piloting skill in the same way as another skill such as Languages, Engineering etc, it really needs to be given more equal billing.

I don't want it every event, but it would be nice for it to be available to use when needed.
"Do I have the right? Simply touch one wire against the other and that's it... But if I kill, wipe out a whole intelligent lifeform, then I become like them. I'd be no better than the Daleks."..4th Doctor - Genesis of the Daleks.

Munroe
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Re: Piloting Rules

Post by Munroe » Wed Jun 03, 2015 3:05 pm

Hi Debs

As for putting the skills on equal footing, we try to make that happen as far as possible, but we do have to accept that in some cases, it's just not possible.

In some skills, we're actively trying to remedy that (archaeology for instance has been rattling round me head for a while). Others, we tried to make them less of a points drain for people (hence the recent piloting rewrite).

Crucially, Stargate LRP is a game about people, on foot, exploring planets and so on.

The Pilot skill is in there to facilitate people playing character types that they want to, and to add possible downtime interactions for those characters through research etc.

However, we want there to be no illusion that this is something that's meant to come up in play.

It isnt.

Some writers may choose to put something in, as is their prerogative, but from a system point of view, adding a card game to it will add more pressure to those writers to work something in. Which is why we're not doing so.
Lt. Alexander Munroe
OOC: Sparks.

One last hope,To rise and break away
Above the faded line, Way beyond the ties that bind

This I know, The risk is worth the gain
It's worth the sacrifice, Way beyond the ties that bind

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BenM
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Re: Piloting Rules

Post by BenM » Thu Jun 04, 2015 12:26 pm

I don't really think that's a valid reasoning, those of us who have piloting do not actually pressurize people to put things in, and in general like several skills (computing at events set on primordial planets?) there are PLENTY of situations were stuff doesn't come up.

Nobody has ever felt pressured to put something into an event simply because it was in the rule book, otherwise we'd NEVER have the social events which are largely lacking in mechanical skills - so that reasoning is fairly heavily flawed and not exactly a 'positive' on my part.

On the subject of piloting being a 'color skill', I have invested a considerable number of down-times into being a pilot even with the new rules re-write the ability to fly 'everything' costs from base: 1st Piloting Tech/Class (6months) Astronaut (6 Months), Astrophysics (12 Months) Pilot Extra Class 1 (3 Months) Pilot Extra Class 2 (3 Months), Pilot Extra Technology 1 (3 Months), Pilot Extra Technology 2 (3 Months), Pilot Extra Technology 3 (3 Months), Extra Technology 4 (3 Months), Pilot Extra Technology 5 (3 Months), Pilot Extra Technology 6 (3 Months) = 48 Months, 4 Years or 16 Events

It is hardly a 'color' skill, of those I have invested: Piloting (Aerospace/Medium), Astrophysics both at Chargen - Pilot Extra Class (Capitol) (3 Months), Pilot Extra Technology (Goa'uld) (3 Months), Astronaut (6 Months), plus an AP for fly it like I stole it = 12 Months or Four Events and for someone doing this from new it would take an extra event because they'd not get the AP until after their fifth.

I have invested MOST of the last year developing as a pilot, having the piloting skill FINALLY given a way to be more uptime useful was a massive pay-off at the event, and I think you'll find the OTHER pilots would agree on that. I don't care that it won't show up unless we have ships available, but having the skill in play actually meant we could do something other than pure tabletopping or DT (which is what I usually get when doing piloting) there were risks and challenges and it meant we had to make considerations.

A 'color' skill is like xenocookery, which requires six months of investment, not a skill that requires (excusing technology and adding AP's into account to make a versatile pilot who fly any ship for a scene): Pilot Aerospace/Medium (6 Months), Astronaut (6 Months), Astrophysics (12 Months), Pilot Class Light (3 Months), Pilot Class Capitol (3 Months) = 30 months worth of skills, and 1 AP to spend on Fly it Like I Stole it...

Not a color skill, your counterpoint?
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Munroe
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Re: Piloting Rules

Post by Munroe » Thu Jun 04, 2015 12:59 pm

To address the points made there in order
Nobody has ever felt pressured to put something into an event simply because it was in the rule book, otherwise we'd NEVER have the social events which are largely lacking in mechanical skills - so that reasoning is fairly heavily flawed and not exactly a 'positive' on my part.
You're flat out Wrong there Ben. Event writers in the past have made a point of catering to as many card game skills as humanly possible on an uptime event. The more system support a Skill gets, the more writers will feel they need to cater to it. We do not want that.

As to the substantial investment you have made, I would ask why? Was it because there was substantial chance of uptime play out of it? Or was it because you wanted your character to be the guy who can fly everything?

From what I'm aware of, it was the latter. That you have chosen to invest so heavily in that particular flavour for your character is your perogative. I would also suggest that you did so knowing there was little/no uptime use for the skill.

The skill exists solely to allow people to add the flavour of "I'm a Pilot" to their character, to hand their roleplaying around. It's one reason why we streamlined it, to make it easier for people who do want to run with that.
Lt. Alexander Munroe
OOC: Sparks.

One last hope,To rise and break away
Above the faded line, Way beyond the ties that bind

This I know, The risk is worth the gain
It's worth the sacrifice, Way beyond the ties that bind

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BenM
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Re: Piloting Rules

Post by BenM » Thu Jun 04, 2015 2:38 pm

As someone who has written events, I tend towards the line of actually operating with 'we work it into the event if it makes sense' but apparently I'm just weird like that. So...not REALLY flat out wrong there as I've certainly been to events where certain card skills haven't come up at all, or have only come up once. Maybe if that is the case, then what needs to be address is the culture of pressure to shoehorn a skill into an event instead? Because frankly allot of feedback in the past has focused on how shoehorning card skills into events has overshadowed what you have so dismissively titled 'color skills'.

When a substancial sub-set of your player base would like the rules to be made official so that they can be used again, I think the rule should be judged on that merit, not on some superstitious fear that a rule is inserted and it will be suddenly required to occur at every event.

I mean all that takes is writing a line that says 'Piloting is rarely a skill that comes up at events, but here is a card game you can use if it does' because...you know...Flexibility?

As for my reasoning, I was more addressing your assumption that it's a color skill, because of the investment required into it - yes I took it because I didn't care if it came up in up-time, but what I do want is when it comes up in up-time to be ENJOYABLE RULES to govern it. Because I absolutely violently hate having to sit on my arse and pretend I'm doing something if I don't have some sort of reasonable fun and challenging card game to do, it's why I like the card games.

I will also lean heavily on the feedback I've seen in the past where a HUGE amount of argument has already come up about the fact that people are already upset that the non-card skills don't come up enough at events because allot of people don't consider them to be 'color' skills.

I also specifically invested in and requested 'Fly it Like I Stole It' and all those skills so that when it DID come up in events it would at least be a practical and useful skill to spend points on. If it's just a 'color' skill, I would rather we went down to piloting covering flying everything like that AP, because then it becomes substantially less of an investment to make it useful for the rare occasions it comes up at events.

Because prior to that investment, every time I had a chance to pilot something at an event (Woodies final event, 10th Anniversary, Dom's Alternative Reality event) I didn't have the RIGHT KIND of piloting to make it work, so it had to be fudged around with, which felt disingenuous to people who invested in the right kind of piloting.

If this ref team are determined not to make piloting anything more than a background skill, then they should reduce the cost of investing in it from the considerable amount it costs.
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Dr Lanfear
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Re: Piloting Rules

Post by Dr Lanfear » Thu Jun 04, 2015 2:46 pm

Is it not actually the case that the piloting skills have been developed because so many characters have followed the pilot route quite successfully since as early as event 2?
All this without any set mechanic for uptime use and it has always been to me about character flavour for the most part.

The added bonus being in that time we have had:
  • Prerecorded flight sim combat
    an Artemis combat sim
    Roleplayed dogfight encounters
    Combat drops
    Submarines
    A shuttle stolen
    A cruiser stolen
    more I am sure
What I am saying is on the occasions pilots get love its usually something pretty damn cool and actually I would rather keep it undefined so that an event runner can be as creative as they like.
Sir/Doctor Thomas Lanfear
Member of Parliment
Minister for and head of the Ministry of Extra Terrestrial Trade

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